August 2025
In this episode, Modearn® Advisors Stacey McKinnon and Michael Grosslight explore how money stories and habits shape the way couples approach financial decisions. They share real-life examples, tips, and strategies for creating healthier money conversations at home.
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From the Heart and the Wallet: Charitable Giving That Makes Sense
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Welcome to another episode of Couchside Conversations. I'm here with my colleague Michael Grosslight, who joined Morton about a year ago. And we are here to talk about a really important topic, money and marriage, which might also make people very uncomfortable.
Yes, makes me uncomfortable
Being here right?
Yes.
Well, you know, we were talking about this before, and I don't know any couple that 100% of the time actually feels like they're on the same page.
No.
Financially
Very rare.
Even my husband and I had an interesting drone conversation that we're going to talk about a little bit later in the episode. Like to buy the drone or not to buy the drone? One of us is on one side of the table and the other one of us is on it.
I think I know who's on which side of the table at the table.
I guess that the truth is that for most couples, maybe 80 to 90% of the time, they are on the same page when it comes to many conversations. But we all have a little bit of room for improvement, I think, in this topic, which we're going to discuss today.
Yeah.
As we were thinking about why this is the case, you and I were discussing about how much history comes into play with money conversations like somebody could grow up with a lot of money, somebody could grow up with not that much money. You could have different conversations through different phases of life. When you're first start dating and maybe you're young and a little more frivolous to like later in life when you're getting ready to retire and you're feeling worried about running out of money like different stages of life cause different money conversations, different history and experiences cause different money perspectives. And so we're going to dig into all of that today, because our goal for the episode is that people can walk away with some tips to how to have healthier discussions going forward.
Sounds good to me.
Well, why don't we start with you to share a little bit more about money, scripts, money, history, and like the different points of view people could have.
Yeah. So I think understanding your partner's money story is probably one of the most important steps you can take in starting to build a strong financial future together. And it's because people grew up with different experiences around money. And those childhood experiences are what psychologists refer to as our money script. So those are beliefs or opinions around things like saving, spending, debt, wealth. And I've seen that play out in my, my own marriage. And, Courtney's giving me permission to talk about this, but, my wife, Courtney, grew up in a household that was a little bit more, I guess, volatile when it came to finances. So sometimes money was fine, no worries. Other times was a little bit tight and there was more stress in the house.
And she's taken that into adulthood and I can understand why. But it's, you know, caused her to be more conservative when it comes to things like spending or saving, just wanting to have a cushion in case something goes wrong. On the flip side, I grew up in a more stable financial household. It's not like we had a ton of money, but my parents always kind of lived by a budget. Monthly budget. What's funny is we both ended up in the same place, being conservative when it comes to spending and saving because, you know, because of how we grew up.
Yeah.
But I think it was important for us to talk about those things early in the relationship, just to make sure we understand, understood our histories around money.
Yeah. It's like every one of these little experiences you have, these micro experiences, they teach you something either to, like, not want the same feelings again or to want more of certain feelings. Right. And that all shapes how we approach money in our relationships.
Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm curious how you talk to clients about creating a safe space to talk about these different money issues.
It's an interesting question because it's uncomfortable. Right? I've heard of people that like schedule a certain time. I feel like if I scheduled a certain time, I would be like, oh no, that time is coming. I know that it's kind of like an anxiety around it. And so what I've actually found is that the best money conversations happen with what I call a referee in the room, and I was watching the women's euros, soccer, they call it football over the weekend. I was thinking about the role of referee and how if there was no referee in that game, the amount of ACL injuries would be like unlimited. Yes, it would be a disaster. It was a bloodbath. So like not having a referee at all causes all of these issues to happen. Some for some reason in marriage, we tend to think money is so private that we only have these conversations with each other when if you enter a referee into this situation, you can actually get a lot healthier dynamics at play because you're not just like groupthink, right?
And I find that sometimes when couples only talk to each other, one person might win the argument at the end, but then it doesn't really feel like any won because someone's depressed and and like, it's not really good at that situation. And so I think one of the most important things that we do as advisors is we are actually fairly good at playing this role of referee.
We can be a non-biased third party that listens to both sides, helps each other one another, like understand the perspective of the other. And I think that that's been really good for us. And sometimes these disagreements are small and because they're big. It could be something like one person wants to pay for college for their kids, another wants them to take out debt because they want them to have that responsibility.
It could be differences in risk tolerance. It could be differences in spending habits. Like I told you about the drone earlier, we're still we're still in discussion about the drone. These things all come to play. And having a third party help like negotiate it I think creates for for a better outcome. Certainly.
Yeah. And I could use a referee in a lot of situations in the house, not just money, but, I totally agree with the referee concept.
I'd actually like to hear a little bit more about you and Courtney and how you make money decisions.
Yeah, well, you brought up an example of one partner wanting to pay for college. One other.
Yeah. That's you.
Yeah. So we had a I can give you an example of how not to have a healthy money conversation.
So a few summers ago, we were driving back from the beach with the kids. They're all in the back. It's late afternoon, and kids were tired, sandy complaining in the backseat of the car. And on top of that, we were stuck in traffic. And I don't know what prompted Courtney to to think, to ask at this time. It's probably because we're with the kids all day. But she she looked at me and said, you know, I know we've been putting money away to save for the kid's college. I think it might be better if they pay for a big chunk of it themselves. Take out student loans, learn some responsibility how to pay back debt. And it's a totally reasonable thing to suggest. I just wasn't in a good headspace because of what was happening behind me mainly.
It's all about timing.
Yes, all about timing. So, And I'd also like, had always thought we would be paying for all the tuition. It's something that my parents did for me, so gave us a nice kind of head start into adulthood, so that it was a turn into a mini argument, and it really shouldn't have.
But again, it was I was stressed out and
yeah
Not ready to handle that kind of question. So the first tip I would say is, you know, try to be in the right environment and make sure both people are on the right headspace, because oftentimes these money conversations can bring up, you know, tension or different can turn into an argument if you don't if you don't think about it the right way.
So that's that's the first thing. Second thing is really try to understand your partner's perspective. Right. So again, in that situation, I didn't take the time to really think about her perspective. I went right to defending my position. So I think it's good. And Courtney does a great job of this, is asking questions to dig deeper into why someone is taking a certain position.
So I like to ask, you know, can you help me understand why this is important to you? Or can you tell me a little bit more about what concerns you about the way I'm thinking about it? So just going it goes back to the money stories that we talked about. Yeah, a lot of times it relates to their, their history or with with money.
Well, I love that because it's like every time you feel that like what's it called. Blood boiling. Yes. Or you get that tension, be like, ask a question instead of ask a question instead of like repeat that back to yourself. Because I mean, that method that you mentioned that she does, that's a that's a good method for de-escalating the situation. And making sure you really understand before you react.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And the last thing I'll say is, try to relate any of these money conversations to the broader financial shared goals that you have as a couple. So most married couples have shared financial goals, whether it's buying a new house, if saving for college or retiring at a certain age.
So if you can try to relate any sort of money conversation back to the shared goals, both of you will need to compromise. That's a major component. But if you can think about how it relates to the broader financial goals that usually helps the conversation.
Having a Northstar to point back to so that these decisions that made me feel really big, they're actually not quite as big when it comes to making good decisions for the long term thing that you want to achieve together.
Yeah, exactly. So I love that you when you think of big decisions, I know a lot of our clients or married couples in general will have disagreements around big purchases like a house or making investment decisions, especially when they have different risk tolerances or different priorities on how to spend the money. How do you help clients with that?
Oh, it's so common for two different people in the room to have a different opinion on risk. And what's what's interesting about that is that it stems from so much history outside of investing. Right? So often times I think, think the most complicated decision makers comes from one spouse who generally was an entrepreneur, maybe started their own business, took a lot of risk themselves, has seen risks pan out so they feel inclined to be more risky.
They're like, I've this has worked for me in the past. Why wouldn't it work for me in the future? And then you have the other spouse that maybe came from a background where they didn't have much, and they don't feel that way. They feel like you took those bets. You're at the gambling table. You won. We should walk away from the table now and we should, you know, make more conservative decisions going forward.
And they're kind of worried, worried about running out of money. They tend to be more of a worrier type. And when you get to people who are like a risk taker, entrepreneur and a worrier type in the same room, it gets really, really complicated and you have to figure out a way to come, come back to the middle.
And so what I always say is that the most important thing to do in those circumstances is just like, dive into education. Like you have to dive in to be educated on both sides, because for the entrepreneur, that was a risk taker. One of the things that they forget is that when they took risks for their business, they were in control of it, meaning they could control for in many cases, how well that business did.
When it comes to investment risk, most of it is outside of our control. It's like monetary policy, like government policy, world policy, things that investment managers make the decisions. The owner doesn't make the decisions. So just because risks worked out for you in your business life doesn't mean that that viewpoint should be taken to an investment decision.
So the best thing for that person to do is say, educate me. Like what are really the upsides? What are the downsides? Tell me about the risks that are not in my control so I can get comfortable from it. Like for it. And actually the same exact principle applies to the other person in the room, the worrier. If they take time to get educated, they might end up saying, oh, that risk actually isn't that bad.
Or I see how the downside is protected. Or they might understand that sitting on their hands is not a good strategy either. And so they have to take a little bit of risk to get the gains to meet those those goals that they have. You know, what's interesting is I don't think being an optimist or a pessimist is actually very good in making investment decisions, because just being optimistic is like hope is not a strategy.
So you can just like hope it works out. Being pessimistic is not very good either, because you're constantly going to say no to things that could have provided you and your family really good opportunities. So be educated. Yeah, education I think, is the is the right balance.
Yeah, yeah. Totally agree.
Well, if we switch gears for a moment and kind of like drill down to day to day decision making, one thing that some couples share is that they struggle with the idea of getting married, and everything is joint and everything is a joint financial decision, and they feel like they lose autonomy.
How would you respond to that? Like what advice would you give there?
Yeah, I think, having financial autonomy is super important in a relationship. No partner in a relationship wants to feel like they need to constantly ask for permission to, like, take a friend to lunch or buy a piece of clothing that they like. And I've seen this, you know, play out with, with friends, especially when one of the partners works and the other doesn't.
It can sometimes feel like you're like for the non-working parent to ask. I feel like they need to ask permission of a parent. Yeah.
Feels weird.
Feels weird. So I think the best way to do to set clear boundaries with and the easiest way to do that is with a dollar threshold. So it's going to vary depending on, you know, the couple's income or net worth.
But for example, let's say it's $500. Yeah. Anything above that requires a conversation. Otherwise go for it.
That's nice.
Yeah.
It gives you that independence
Gives you that independence. But I'll also say financial independence does not mean financial secrecy.
Yes.
So you don't want to keep secrets. You want to, you know, keep having an open discussion around spending habits, because you want to keep building that trust.
Yeah. You want people to feel like they have autonomy to make decisions, but you also don't want to feel like, people are working hard and then they feel taken advantage of. And you don't want to circle into that world. You want to give everybody autonomy, but then also honor, like all the roles that's people play in a, you know, a relationship.
And again, you just want people to be on the same page. I think that's what's important. So is how do you help clients create alignment? You've been in an advisor for a while. What are your what are your tricks or tips?
Well, what's interesting about this is I think right now, the healthiest money conversations I see play out and very similar to what you described earlier, actually, with you and Courtney.
When you're in a good place, it's when they take a moment to listen. Like my favorite is when one person is talking to another and they obviously don't agree with the other person's point of view, but they respond with, I understand how you got there, or I see how you feel that way when you respond with like acknowledging that that person's viewpoint, while different than yours, comes from a place that's important to them.
I think that those are the best money conversations. So like listening I think is such a key point. And then the other thing is letting it go. Let's bring the drone back to the conversation
I wanted to talk about this. So excited.
So my husband wants the drone because one of his favorite things to do is go on bike rides with my dad.
Okay
So my husband, my dad have a really good relationship. They go on bike rides together, and he wants to be able to film their bike rides with the drone and then bring it back so I can see all of like the epic adventures they take. He also goes on rides with me and our puppy and he wants to like film her to the puppy riding with us and the bikes and the whole thing.
And so his why behind the drone is he wants to like, memorialize these moments that we have together. So you know what? I have the drone. I just I know that he's going on bike rides, but he's also very good salesperson. Yes, yes, yes. But I think the truth of the matter is that, like sometimes with these big financial decisions, like at first I rolled my eyes at the drone, but then once he explained his why behind it, I'm like, I see. I see how this could add value to our lives. So being open minded and also like just let it go sometimes like that, let it go. So what would your one piece of advice be for people.
I mean it's very similar to what you said I say communicate. I think it's the most important thing in all matters in a marriage is just be open, have those open conversations, be transparent and really listen.
Yeah.
But all comes back to communication.
Yeah. Miscommunication, I think, is like the stem of most problems. And marriage relationships work all of it. So communicate communicate communicate.
Yeah.
This was such a great conversation. Now we're going to transition into my favorite segment called This or That where we just ask each other questions and then really quick we have to give an answer without like thinking about it in advance.
Okay. Sound good.
Sounds good. All right. Let's do it.
Do you want to have money conversations with your spouse weekly or monthly?
Definitely not weekly. So I'll say monthly. But monthly might even be quarterly.
Very good.
All right. Do you recommend joint accounts or separate accounts?
Joint accounts. There's some transparency in that. Although when I got married, my uncle did tell me that you should put all the money in the joint account and then put $1,000 a month into each person's separate account. And then that way, they could buy Christmas gifts and other things that they wanted. And I always thought that that was a good idea. Yeah. So I would go joint account. But I like the other idea too, if that works for you, a good tip.
All right, next question for you. When you make financial decisions, do you believe that you should delegate financial decisions to one spouse or partner, or do you think you should make most of them jointly?
I would say most jointly
yeah.
And again, it goes back to, you know, communication. So I think any big investment decsion or money decision should be a joint decsion.
Avoiding misunderstandings.
Avoid misunderstanding. Don't want to create resentment around anything.
Good. Good call
Yeah. All right. Last one. When you make investment decisions, what's more important. Age of the person or goals?
Definitely goals. This is like one of the biggest fallacies investing, in my opinion, is that you should invest to your age. Meaning when you're younger you should be really risky. And when you're older, you should be really conservative. It doesn't really make sense. If my goal is to buy a house in three years, then why would I be really risky with my money. Like, it's almost like not the right way to think about it. I think goals all the way.
Okay, I'm with you on that.
Well, this is really fun. I hope that you enjoyed this episode. Feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions, and we'll see you next time.
Wow.
Disclosures: Information presented herein is for discussion and illustrative purposes only and is not intended to constitute financial advice. The views and opinions expressed by the speakers are as of the date of the recording and are subject to change. It should not be assumed that Morton will make recommendations in the future that are consistent with the views expressed herein. These views are not intended as a recommendation to buy or sell any securities, and should not be relied on as financial, tax or legal advice. You should consult with your finance professional, accountant, or tax professional before implementing any transactions and/or strategies concerning your finances.
